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Mineralanguage

MK
Matthew Kohn
Thu, May 1, 2014 8:01 AM

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation.

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list. Apologies if you've seen this before. Maybe apologies even if you haven't... Best, Matt Mineralanguage. A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation.
KL
KEN Livi
Thu, May 1, 2014 1:07 PM

Matt,
This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-gists' names.
Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote:

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation.

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center
Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology
Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|

Matt, This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-gists' names. Ken On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote: > I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list. > > Apologies if you've seen this before. > > Maybe apologies even if you haven't... > > Best, > > Matt > > Mineralanguage. > > A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” > > Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” > > Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. > > So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation. > > > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list > MSA-talk@minlists.org > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| Kenneth JT Livi, PhD Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology Olin Hall 3400 N Charles Street Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :|
KL
KEN Livi
Thu, May 1, 2014 1:20 PM

Found a rule to explain this. At the website http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/

Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three-syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter.

and then…

Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second  syllable in four-syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent.

So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the accent will change from the first to the second syllable.

It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right?

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote:

Matt,
This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-gists' names.
Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote:

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation.

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center
Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology
Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center
Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology
Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|

Found a rule to explain this. At the website http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/ Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three-syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter. and then… Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second syllable in four-syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent. So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the accent will change from the first to the second syllable. It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right? Ken On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote: > Matt, > This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-gists' names. > Ken > > On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote: > >> I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list. >> >> Apologies if you've seen this before. >> >> Maybe apologies even if you haven't... >> >> Best, >> >> Matt >> >> Mineralanguage. >> >> A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” >> >> Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” >> >> Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. >> >> So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MSA-talk mailing list >> MSA-talk@minlists.org >> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > > |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| > Kenneth JT Livi, PhD > Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility > of the Integrated Imaging Center > Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology > Olin Hall > 3400 N Charles Street > Johns Hopkins University > Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA > | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| > |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| Kenneth JT Livi, PhD Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology Olin Hall 3400 N Charles Street Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :|
RT
Robert Tracy
Thu, May 1, 2014 1:53 PM

That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite and SIL-li-man-ite.

Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong, and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that.

Dr. Robert Tracy
Professor of Geosciences
Associate Department Head
Director, Museum of Geosciences
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg VA 24061-0420
540-231-5980
540-231-3386 (F)

On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi klivi@jhu.edu wrote:

Found a rule to explain this. At the website http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/

Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three-syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter.

and then…

Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second  syllable in four-syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent.

So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the accent will change from the first to the second syllable.

It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right?

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote:

Matt,
This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-gists' names.
Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote:

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation.

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center
Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology
Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center
Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology
Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite and SIL-li-man-ite. Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong, and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that. Dr. Robert Tracy Professor of Geosciences Associate Department Head Director, Museum of Geosciences Virginia Tech Blacksburg VA 24061-0420 540-231-5980 540-231-3386 (F) On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi <klivi@jhu.edu> wrote: > Found a rule to explain this. At the website http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/ > > Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three-syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter. > > and then… > > Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second syllable in four-syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent. > > So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the accent will change from the first to the second syllable. > > It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right? > > Ken > > On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote: > >> Matt, >> This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-gists' names. >> Ken >> >> On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote: >> >>> I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list. >>> >>> Apologies if you've seen this before. >>> >>> Maybe apologies even if you haven't... >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> Mineralanguage. >>> >>> A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” >>> >>> Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” >>> >>> Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. >>> >>> So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> MSA-talk mailing list >>> MSA-talk@minlists.org >>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk >> >> |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| >> Kenneth JT Livi, PhD >> Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility >> of the Integrated Imaging Center >> Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology >> Olin Hall >> 3400 N Charles Street >> Johns Hopkins University >> Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA >> | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| >> > > |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| > Kenneth JT Livi, PhD > Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility > of the Integrated Imaging Center > Departments of Earth and Planetary Sciences and Biology > Olin Hall > 3400 N Charles Street > Johns Hopkins University > Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA > | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| > > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list > MSA-talk@minlists.org > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk
ME
Marion E Bickford
Thu, May 1, 2014 2:01 PM

Dear Colleagues: This is an interesting dialogue! I have been trying to get people to pronounce Wollastonite and Sillimanite correctly for years.  While we are at it, how about serpentinite (SERpentinite---after the mineral Serpentine; not serPENtenite) and Labradorite (not LaBradorite, but LABradorite, after Labrador).

Best regards to all,

Pat Bickford
Syracuse University

-----Original Message-----
From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:53 AM
To: KEN Livi
Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve
Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage

That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite and SIL-li-man-ite.

Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong, and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that.

Dr. Robert Tracy
Professor of Geosciences
Associate Department Head
Director, Museum of Geosciences
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg VA 24061-0420
540-231-5980
540-231-3386 (F)

On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi klivi@jhu.edu wrote:

Found a rule to explain this. At the website
http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/

Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three-syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter.

and then…

Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second  syllable in four-syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent.

So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the accent will change from the first to the second syllable.

It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right?

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote:

Matt,
This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-gists' names.
Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote:

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation.

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |
| | :|

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  |
| :|

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

Dear Colleagues: This is an interesting dialogue! I have been trying to get people to pronounce Wollastonite and Sillimanite correctly for years. While we are at it, how about serpentinite (SERpentinite---after the mineral Serpentine; not serPENtenite) and Labradorite (not LaBradorite, but LABradorite, after Labrador). Best regards to all, Pat Bickford Syracuse University -----Original Message----- From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:53 AM To: KEN Livi Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite and SIL-li-man-ite. Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong, and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that. Dr. Robert Tracy Professor of Geosciences Associate Department Head Director, Museum of Geosciences Virginia Tech Blacksburg VA 24061-0420 540-231-5980 540-231-3386 (F) On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi <klivi@jhu.edu> wrote: > Found a rule to explain this. At the website > http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/ > > Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three-syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter. > > and then… > > Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second syllable in four-syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent. > > So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the accent will change from the first to the second syllable. > > It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right? > > Ken > > On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote: > >> Matt, >> This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-gists' names. >> Ken >> >> On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote: >> >>> I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the list. >>> >>> Apologies if you've seen this before. >>> >>> Maybe apologies even if you haven't... >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> Mineralanguage. >>> >>> A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” >>> >>> Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” >>> >>> Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. >>> >>> So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to the next generation. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> MSA-talk mailing list >>> MSA-talk@minlists.org >>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk >> >> |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| >> Kenneth JT Livi, PhD >> Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility >> of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary >> Sciences and Biology Olin Hall >> 3400 N Charles Street >> Johns Hopkins University >> Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA >> | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | >> | | :| >> > > |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| > Kenneth JT Livi, PhD > Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility > of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary > Sciences and Biology Olin Hall > 3400 N Charles Street > Johns Hopkins University > Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA > | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | > | :| > > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list > MSA-talk@minlists.org > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk _______________________________________________ MSA-talk mailing list MSA-talk@minlists.org http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk
LD
Lewis, Dewi
Thu, May 1, 2014 2:05 PM

Clinoptilolite
Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect a member of this list once told me (Guy?).
Discuss......!

Dr. Dewi W. Lewis
Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor
Department of Chemistry                        Email: d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.ukmailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk
University College London                      Phone: +44 020-7679-4779
20 Gordon St.                                                Fax: +44 020-7679-7463
London WC1H 0AJ, UK
WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis

-----Original Message-----
From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk-
bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy
Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53
To: KEN Livi
Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve
Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage

That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name
incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of
that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite
and SIL-li-man-ite.

Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong,
and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the
honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that.

Dr. Robert Tracy
Professor of Geosciences
Associate Department Head
Director, Museum of Geosciences
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg VA 24061-0420
540-231-5980
540-231-3386 (F)

On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi klivi@jhu.edu wrote:

Found a rule to explain this. At the website
http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/

Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three-

syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter.

and then…

Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second  syllable in four-

syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent.

So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the

accent will change from the first to the second syllable.

It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right?

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote:

Matt,
This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I

work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-
CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think
this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-
gists' names.

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote:

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the

list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the

geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I
semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about
since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite
(MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well,
it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite
(BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a
man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph

Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his
name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being
mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do
every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I
pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a
French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin
Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the
names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why
do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little
nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my
tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But
no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only
because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know:
“Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if
one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named
after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not
“sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible

pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and
charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as
different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out
how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is
named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should
try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the

Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite
occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning
“single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words
"monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline,"
etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,”
that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably
the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect
anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth
materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to
the next generation.

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |
| | :|

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  |
| :|

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

Clinoptilolite Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect a member of this list once told me (Guy?). Discuss......! ____________________________________________________________________________ Dr. Dewi W. Lewis Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor Department of Chemistry Email: d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk> University College London Phone: +44 020-7679-4779 20 Gordon St. Fax: +44 020-7679-7463 London WC1H 0AJ, UK WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis > -----Original Message----- > From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk- > bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy > Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53 > To: KEN Livi > Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve > Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage > > That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name > incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of > that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite > and SIL-li-man-ite. > > Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong, > and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the > honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that. > > Dr. Robert Tracy > Professor of Geosciences > Associate Department Head > Director, Museum of Geosciences > Virginia Tech > Blacksburg VA 24061-0420 > 540-231-5980 > 540-231-3386 (F) > > > > > On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi <klivi@jhu.edu> wrote: > > > Found a rule to explain this. At the website > > http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/ > > > > Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three- > syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter. > > > > and then… > > > > Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second syllable in four- > syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent. > > > > So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the > accent will change from the first to the second syllable. > > > > It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right? > > > > Ken > > > > On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote: > > > >> Matt, > >> This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I > work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi- > CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think > this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o- > gists' names. > >> Ken > >> > >> On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote: > >> > >>> I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the > list. > >>> > >>> Apologies if you've seen this before. > >>> > >>> Maybe apologies even if you haven't... > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Matt > >>> > >>> Mineralanguage. > >>> > >>> A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the > geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I > semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about > since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite > (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, > it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite > (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a > man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” > >>> > >>> Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph > Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his > name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being > mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do > every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I > pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a > French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin > Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the > names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why > do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little > nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my > tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But > no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only > because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: > “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if > one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named > after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not > “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” > >>> > >>> Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible > pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and > charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as > different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out > how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is > named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should > try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. > >>> > >>> So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the > Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite > occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning > “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words > "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," > etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” > that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably > the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect > anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth > materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to > the next generation. > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> MSA-talk mailing list > >>> MSA-talk@minlists.org > >>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > >> > >> |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| > >> Kenneth JT Livi, PhD > >> Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility > >> of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary > >> Sciences and Biology Olin Hall > >> 3400 N Charles Street > >> Johns Hopkins University > >> Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA > >> | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | > >> | | :| > >> > > > > |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| > > Kenneth JT Livi, PhD > > Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility > > of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary > > Sciences and Biology Olin Hall > > 3400 N Charles Street > > Johns Hopkins University > > Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA > > | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | > > | :| > > > > _______________________________________________ > > MSA-talk mailing list > > MSA-talk@minlists.org > > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list > MSA-talk@minlists.org > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk
AS
Adam Simon
Thu, May 1, 2014 2:13 PM

I think this thread reflects the pronunciation complexities of the English
language.

We say Wooster when we pronounce Worchester

But we do NOT say Dooster when we pronounce Dorchester.

My kids continually point out the inconsistencies of the English language
as they move up through the grade school ranks.

Silent "k", silent "g", silent "p", but only sometimes and never on
Tuesdays or Saturdays..

Adam Simon
University of Michigan

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Lewis, Dewi d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

Clinoptilolite
Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be
clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect a
member of this list once told me (Guy?).
Discuss......!

Dr. Dewi W. Lewis
Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor
Department of Chemistry                        Email: d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk
mailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk
University College London                      Phone: +44 020-7679-4779
20 Gordon St.                                                Fax: +44
020-7679-7463
London WC1H 0AJ, UK
WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis

-----Original Message-----
From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk-
bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy
Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53
To: KEN Livi
Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve
Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage

That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name
incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation

of

that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have

WOL-las-ton-ite

and SIL-li-man-ite.

Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one

wrong,

and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the
honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that.

Dr. Robert Tracy
Professor of Geosciences
Associate Department Head
Director, Museum of Geosciences
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg VA 24061-0420
540-231-5980
540-231-3386 (F)

On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi klivi@jhu.edu wrote:

Found a rule to explain this. At the website
http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/

Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in

three-

syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter.

and then…

Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second  syllable in

four-

syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent.

So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the

accent will change from the first to the second syllable.

It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it

right?

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote:

Matt,
This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English

language. I

work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-
CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think
this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-
gists' names.

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote:

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it

to the

list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on

the

geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I
semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about
since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it

monazite

(MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well,
it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite
(BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a
man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph

Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his
name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being
mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what

I do

every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I
pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or

a

French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin
Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the
names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why
do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a

little

nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my
tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation).

But

no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only
because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know:
“Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope

that if

one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named
after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite”

and not

“sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible

pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those

minor and

charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just

as

different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure

out

how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is
named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we

should

try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root

is the

Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite
occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning
“single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words
"monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline,"
etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,”
that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably
the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect
anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth
materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along

to

the next generation.

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |
| | :|

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  |
| :|

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

I think this thread reflects the pronunciation complexities of the English language. We say Wooster when we pronounce Worchester But we do NOT say Dooster when we pronounce Dorchester. My kids continually point out the inconsistencies of the English language as they move up through the grade school ranks. Silent "k", silent "g", silent "p", but only sometimes and never on Tuesdays or Saturdays.. ____________________________________________ Adam Simon University of Michigan On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Lewis, Dewi <d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: > Clinoptilolite > Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be > clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect a > member of this list once told me (Guy?). > Discuss......! > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > Dr. Dewi W. Lewis > Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor > Department of Chemistry Email: d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk > <mailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk> > University College London Phone: +44 020-7679-4779 > 20 Gordon St. Fax: +44 > 020-7679-7463 > London WC1H 0AJ, UK > WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk- > > bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy > > Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53 > > To: KEN Livi > > Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve > > Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage > > > > That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name > > incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation > of > > that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have > WOL-las-ton-ite > > and SIL-li-man-ite. > > > > Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one > wrong, > > and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the > > honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that. > > > > Dr. Robert Tracy > > Professor of Geosciences > > Associate Department Head > > Director, Museum of Geosciences > > Virginia Tech > > Blacksburg VA 24061-0420 > > 540-231-5980 > > 540-231-3386 (F) > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi <klivi@jhu.edu> wrote: > > > > > Found a rule to explain this. At the website > > > http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/ > > > > > > Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in > three- > > syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter. > > > > > > and then… > > > > > > Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second syllable in > four- > > syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent. > > > > > > So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the > > accent will change from the first to the second syllable. > > > > > > It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it > right? > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote: > > > > > >> Matt, > > >> This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English > language. I > > work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi- > > CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think > > this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o- > > gists' names. > > >> Ken > > >> > > >> On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote: > > >> > > >>> I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it > to the > > list. > > >>> > > >>> Apologies if you've seen this before. > > >>> > > >>> Maybe apologies even if you haven't... > > >>> > > >>> Best, > > >>> > > >>> Matt > > >>> > > >>> Mineralanguage. > > >>> > > >>> A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on > the > > geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I > > semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about > > since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it > monazite > > (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, > > it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite > > (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a > > man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” > > >>> > > >>> Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph > > Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his > > name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being > > mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what > I do > > every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I > > pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or > a > > French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin > > Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the > > names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why > > do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a > little > > nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my > > tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). > But > > no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only > > because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: > > “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope > that if > > one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named > > after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” > and not > > “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” > > >>> > > >>> Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible > > pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those > minor and > > charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just > as > > different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure > out > > how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is > > named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we > should > > try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. > > >>> > > >>> So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root > is the > > Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite > > occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning > > “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words > > "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," > > etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” > > that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably > > the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect > > anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth > > materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along > to > > the next generation. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> MSA-talk mailing list > > >>> MSA-talk@minlists.org > > >>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > > >> > > >> |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| > > >> Kenneth JT Livi, PhD > > >> Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility > > >> of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary > > >> Sciences and Biology Olin Hall > > >> 3400 N Charles Street > > >> Johns Hopkins University > > >> Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA > > >> | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | > > >> | | :| > > >> > > > > > > |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| > > > Kenneth JT Livi, PhD > > > Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility > > > of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary > > > Sciences and Biology Olin Hall > > > 3400 N Charles Street > > > Johns Hopkins University > > > Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA > > > | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | > > > | :| > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > MSA-talk mailing list > > > MSA-talk@minlists.org > > > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > MSA-talk mailing list > > MSA-talk@minlists.org > > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list > MSA-talk@minlists.org > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk >
PN
Philip Neuhoff
Thu, May 1, 2014 2:22 PM

Dewi is correct about that one...clinoptilolite was thought to be a form
of mordenite (with the now discredited name of ptilolite with a silent
p) that was monoclinic instead of orthorhombic.  We now know that it
shares a framework structure and solid solution with heulandite.  So
yes, it should be pronounced kly-no-tye-lo-lite.

Hopefully if there is ever a dewilewisite we will pronounce it in the
proper Welsh.

Phil

On 5/1/2014 8:05 AM, Lewis, Dewi wrote:

Clinoptilolite
Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect a member of this list once told me (Guy?).
Discuss......!

Dr. Dewi W. Lewis
Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor
Department of Chemistry                        Email: d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.ukmailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk
University College London                      Phone: +44 020-7679-4779
20 Gordon St.                                                Fax: +44 020-7679-7463
London WC1H 0AJ, UK
WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis

-----Original Message-----
From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk-
bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy
Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53
To: KEN Livi
Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve
Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage

That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name
incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of
that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite
and SIL-li-man-ite.

Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong,
and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the
honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that.

Dr. Robert Tracy
Professor of Geosciences
Associate Department Head
Director, Museum of Geosciences
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg VA 24061-0420
540-231-5980
540-231-3386 (F)

On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi klivi@jhu.edu wrote:

Found a rule to explain this. At the website
http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/

Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three-

syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter.

and then…

Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second  syllable in four-

syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent.

So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the

accent will change from the first to the second syllable.

It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right?

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote:

Matt,
This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I

work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-
CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think
this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-
gists' names.

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote:

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the

list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the

geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I
semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about
since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite
(MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well,
it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite
(BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a
man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph

Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his
name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being
mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do
every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I
pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a
French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin
Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the
names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why
do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little
nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my
tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But
no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only
because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know:
“Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if
one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named
after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not
“sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible

pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and
charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as
different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out
how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is
named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should
try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the

Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite
occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning
“single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words
"monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline,"
etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,”
that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably
the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect
anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth
materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to
the next generation.

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |
| | :|

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  |
| :|

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

--
Philip S. Neuhoff, Ph.D.
neuhoff@ufl.edu
208-939-4508

Dewi is correct about that one...clinoptilolite was thought to be a form of mordenite (with the now discredited name of ptilolite with a silent p) that was monoclinic instead of orthorhombic. We now know that it shares a framework structure and solid solution with heulandite. So yes, it should be pronounced kly-no-tye-lo-lite. Hopefully if there is ever a dewilewisite we will pronounce it in the proper Welsh. Phil On 5/1/2014 8:05 AM, Lewis, Dewi wrote: > Clinoptilolite > Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect a member of this list once told me (Guy?). > Discuss......! > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > Dr. Dewi W. Lewis > Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor > Department of Chemistry Email: d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk> > University College London Phone: +44 020-7679-4779 > 20 Gordon St. Fax: +44 020-7679-7463 > London WC1H 0AJ, UK > WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk- >> bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy >> Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53 >> To: KEN Livi >> Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve >> Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage >> >> That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name >> incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of >> that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite >> and SIL-li-man-ite. >> >> Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong, >> and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the >> honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that. >> >> Dr. Robert Tracy >> Professor of Geosciences >> Associate Department Head >> Director, Museum of Geosciences >> Virginia Tech >> Blacksburg VA 24061-0420 >> 540-231-5980 >> 540-231-3386 (F) >> >> >> >> >> On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi <klivi@jhu.edu> wrote: >> >>> Found a rule to explain this. At the website >>> http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/ >>> >>> Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three- >> syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter. >>> and then… >>> >>> Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second syllable in four- >> syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent. >>> So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the >> accent will change from the first to the second syllable. >>> It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right? >>> >>> Ken >>> >>> On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote: >>> >>>> Matt, >>>> This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I >> work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi- >> CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think >> this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o- >> gists' names. >>>> Ken >>>> >>>> On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote: >>>> >>>>> I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the >> list. >>>>> Apologies if you've seen this before. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe apologies even if you haven't... >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Matt >>>>> >>>>> Mineralanguage. >>>>> >>>>> A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the >> geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I >> semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about >> since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite >> (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, >> it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite >> (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a >> man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” >>>>> Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph >> Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his >> name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being >> mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do >> every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I >> pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a >> French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin >> Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the >> names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why >> do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little >> nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my >> tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But >> no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only >> because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: >> “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if >> one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named >> after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not >> “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” >>>>> Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible >> pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and >> charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as >> different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out >> how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is >> named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should >> try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. >>>>> So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the >> Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite >> occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning >> “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words >> "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," >> etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” >> that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably >> the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect >> anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth >> materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to >> the next generation. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> MSA-talk mailing list >>>>> MSA-talk@minlists.org >>>>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk >>>> |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| >>>> Kenneth JT Livi, PhD >>>> Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility >>>> of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary >>>> Sciences and Biology Olin Hall >>>> 3400 N Charles Street >>>> Johns Hopkins University >>>> Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA >>>> | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | >>>> | | :| >>>> >>> |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| >>> Kenneth JT Livi, PhD >>> Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility >>> of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary >>> Sciences and Biology Olin Hall >>> 3400 N Charles Street >>> Johns Hopkins University >>> Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA >>> | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | >>> | :| >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> MSA-talk mailing list >>> MSA-talk@minlists.org >>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk >> _______________________________________________ >> MSA-talk mailing list >> MSA-talk@minlists.org >> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list > MSA-talk@minlists.org > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk -- Philip S. Neuhoff, Ph.D. neuhoff@ufl.edu 208-939-4508
DL
David L. Bish
Thu, May 1, 2014 3:29 PM

At the risk of overexposure to zeolites, Phil is right, clinoptilolite
is the variety of ptilolite, first identified based on its inclined
extinction. It was later found to be monoclinic, of course.

Fred Mumpton used to give a lecture on zeolite mineral name
pronunciation, much of it based on the roots of the words.  So
clinoptilolite is pronounced kly-no-tee-lo-lite (after the root ptilos,
tee-loss), not tye-lo-lite (which is better than klynop-tie-lo-lite!).
The old copies of Dana have considerable information on the origin of
mineral names, which often clarify pronunciation.

Dave

On 5/1/2014 10:22 AM, Philip Neuhoff wrote:

Dewi is correct about that one...clinoptilolite was thought to be a
form of mordenite (with the now discredited name of ptilolite with a
silent p) that was monoclinic instead of orthorhombic.  We now know
that it shares a framework structure and solid solution with
heulandite.  So yes, it should be pronounced kly-no-tye-lo-lite.

Hopefully if there is ever a dewilewisite we will pronounce it in the
proper Welsh.

Phil

On 5/1/2014 8:05 AM, Lewis, Dewi wrote:

Clinoptilolite
Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be
clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect
a member of this list once told me (Guy?).
Discuss......!

Dr. Dewi W. Lewis
Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor
Department of Chemistry                        Email:
d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.ukmailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk
University College London                      Phone: +44 020-7679-4779
20 Gordon St. Fax: +44 020-7679-7463
London WC1H 0AJ, UK
WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis

-----Original Message-----
From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk-
bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy
Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53
To: KEN Livi
Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve
Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage

That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name
incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct
pronunciation of
that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have
WOL-las-ton-ite
and SIL-li-man-ite.

Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second
one wrong,
and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities
of the
honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all
that.

Dr. Robert Tracy
Professor of Geosciences
Associate Department Head
Director, Museum of Geosciences
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg VA 24061-0420
540-231-5980
540-231-3386 (F)

On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi klivi@jhu.edu wrote:

Found a rule to explain this. At the website
http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/

Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable
in three-

syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter.

and then…

Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second syllable in
four-

syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent.

So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the

accent will change from the first to the second syllable.

It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it
right?

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote:

Matt,
This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English
language. I

work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and
do mi-
CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I
think
this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of
Min-er-AL-o-
gists' names.

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote:

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent
it to the

list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish
on the

geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions,
so I
semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered
about
since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it
monazite
(MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well,
it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite
(BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there
was a
man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph

Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his
name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was
being
mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s
what I do
every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I
pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with
Madeline or a
French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after
Benjamin
Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the
names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So
why
do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is
a little
nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably
off my
tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct
pronunciation). But
no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only
because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You
know:
“Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope
that if
one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named
after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it
“SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not
“sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible

pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those
minor and
charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting,
just as
different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can
figure out
how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a
mineral is
named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we
should
try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the
root is the

Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite
occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning
“single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words
"monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline,"
etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,”
that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So,
probably
the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect
anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth
materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed
along to
the next generation.

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |
| | :|

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .| | .|  |  |
| :|

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

--
David L. Bish
Department of Geological Sciences
Indiana University
1001 E. 10th St.
Bloomington, IN 47405
812-855-2039

At the risk of overexposure to zeolites, Phil is right, clinoptilolite is the variety of ptilolite, first identified based on its inclined extinction. It was later found to be monoclinic, of course. Fred Mumpton used to give a lecture on zeolite mineral name pronunciation, much of it based on the roots of the words. So clinoptilolite is pronounced kly-no-tee-lo-lite (after the root ptilos, tee-loss), not tye-lo-lite (which is better than klynop-tie-lo-lite!). The old copies of Dana have considerable information on the origin of mineral names, which often clarify pronunciation. Dave On 5/1/2014 10:22 AM, Philip Neuhoff wrote: > Dewi is correct about that one...clinoptilolite was thought to be a > form of mordenite (with the now discredited name of ptilolite with a > silent p) that was monoclinic instead of orthorhombic. We now know > that it shares a framework structure and solid solution with > heulandite. So yes, it should be pronounced kly-no-tye-lo-lite. > > Hopefully if there is ever a dewilewisite we will pronounce it in the > proper Welsh. > > Phil > > > On 5/1/2014 8:05 AM, Lewis, Dewi wrote: >> Clinoptilolite >> Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be >> clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect >> a member of this list once told me (Guy?). >> Discuss......! >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> Dr. Dewi W. Lewis >> Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor >> Department of Chemistry Email: >> d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk> >> University College London Phone: +44 020-7679-4779 >> 20 Gordon St. Fax: +44 020-7679-7463 >> London WC1H 0AJ, UK >> WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk- >>> bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy >>> Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53 >>> To: KEN Livi >>> Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve >>> Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage >>> >>> That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name >>> incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct >>> pronunciation of >>> that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have >>> WOL-las-ton-ite >>> and SIL-li-man-ite. >>> >>> Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second >>> one wrong, >>> and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities >>> of the >>> honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all >>> that. >>> >>> Dr. Robert Tracy >>> Professor of Geosciences >>> Associate Department Head >>> Director, Museum of Geosciences >>> Virginia Tech >>> Blacksburg VA 24061-0420 >>> 540-231-5980 >>> 540-231-3386 (F) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi <klivi@jhu.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Found a rule to explain this. At the website >>>> http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/ >>>> >>>> Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable >>>> in three- >>> syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter. >>>> and then… >>>> >>>> Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second syllable in >>>> four- >>> syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent. >>>> So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the >>> accent will change from the first to the second syllable. >>>> It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it >>>> right? >>>> >>>> Ken >>>> >>>> On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote: >>>> >>>>> Matt, >>>>> This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English >>>>> language. I >>> work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and >>> do mi- >>> CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I >>> think >>> this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of >>> Min-er-AL-o- >>> gists' names. >>>>> Ken >>>>> >>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent >>>>>> it to the >>> list. >>>>>> Apologies if you've seen this before. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe apologies even if you haven't... >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Matt >>>>>> >>>>>> Mineralanguage. >>>>>> >>>>>> A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish >>>>>> on the >>> geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, >>> so I >>> semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered >>> about >>> since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it >>> monazite >>> (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, >>> it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite >>> (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there >>> was a >>> man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” >>>>>> Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph >>> Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his >>> name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was >>> being >>> mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s >>> what I do >>> every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I >>> pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with >>> Madeline or a >>> French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after >>> Benjamin >>> Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the >>> names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So >>> why >>> do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is >>> a little >>> nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably >>> off my >>> tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct >>> pronunciation). But >>> no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only >>> because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You >>> know: >>> “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope >>> that if >>> one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named >>> after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it >>> “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not >>> “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” >>>>>> Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible >>> pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those >>> minor and >>> charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, >>> just as >>> different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can >>> figure out >>> how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a >>> mineral is >>> named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we >>> should >>> try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. >>>>>> So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the >>>>>> root is the >>> Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite >>> occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning >>> “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words >>> "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," >>> etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” >>> that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, >>> probably >>> the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect >>> anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth >>> materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed >>> along to >>> the next generation. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> MSA-talk mailing list >>>>>> MSA-talk@minlists.org >>>>>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk >>>>> |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| >>>>> Kenneth JT Livi, PhD >>>>> Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility >>>>> of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary >>>>> Sciences and Biology Olin Hall >>>>> 3400 N Charles Street >>>>> Johns Hopkins University >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA >>>>> | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | >>>>> | | :| >>>>> >>>> |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| >>>> Kenneth JT Livi, PhD >>>> Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility >>>> of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary >>>> Sciences and Biology Olin Hall >>>> 3400 N Charles Street >>>> Johns Hopkins University >>>> Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA >>>> | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | >>>> | :| >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> MSA-talk mailing list >>>> MSA-talk@minlists.org >>>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk >>> _______________________________________________ >>> MSA-talk mailing list >>> MSA-talk@minlists.org >>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk >> _______________________________________________ >> MSA-talk mailing list >> MSA-talk@minlists.org >> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > > -- David L. Bish Department of Geological Sciences Indiana University 1001 E. 10th St. Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-2039
AC
Anton Chakhmouradian
Thu, May 1, 2014 4:01 PM

Hello All,

This has been a very interesting discussion (I have been trying to get my students say WOL-las-ton-ite for ages, albeit to little avail because just about everyone else seems partial to Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE), but I do not think our frustration at the lack of consistency in the "Mineralanguage" will lead anywhere because:

(1) The phonetic plasticity (or ambiguity?) of English leaves too much room for interpretation when it comes to long multisyllabic mineral names. For example, there are two "official" versions of PYROXENE in Merriam-Webster and I have heard the name XENOTIME pronounced in four different ways by native speakers!
(2) There are global and regional variations in the English language that cannot be simply reconciled with a decree from the IMA.
(3) Many, if not most, names based on foreign words cannot be pronounced "correctly" (i.e. in accord with the original) by English speakers because of phonetic differences - often quite significant - among different languages (try getting BYELLORUSSITE, TSAREGORODSTEVITE or SCHERBAKOVITE right, for example). In the same fashion, most mineral names rooted in English are butchered by everyone else; William Wollaston would probably never recognize that the Russian vəl-las-tah-NEET is actually named after him.

I think having so much variation is actually a good thing because, in a way, it teaches our students to be open-minded and flexible (isn't that what geology is about?). Let's just agree to disagree!..

Anton Chakhmouradian
University of Manitoba

-----Original Message-----
From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Lewis, Dewi
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:06 AM
To: MSA public List serve
Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage

Clinoptilolite
Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect a member of this list once told me (Guy?).
Discuss......!

Dr. Dewi W. Lewis
Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor
Department of Chemistry                        Email: d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.ukmailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk
University College London                      Phone: +44 020-7679-4779
20 Gordon St.                                                Fax: +44 020-7679-7463
London WC1H 0AJ, UK
WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis

-----Original Message-----
From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk-
bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy
Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53
To: KEN Livi
Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve
Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage

That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name
incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of
that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite
and SIL-li-man-ite.

Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong,
and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the
honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that.

Dr. Robert Tracy
Professor of Geosciences
Associate Department Head
Director, Museum of Geosciences
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg VA 24061-0420
540-231-5980
540-231-3386 (F)

On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi klivi@jhu.edu wrote:

Found a rule to explain this. At the website
http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/

Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three-

syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter.

and then…

Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second  syllable in four-

syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent.

So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the

accent will change from the first to the second syllable.

It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right?

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote:

Matt,
This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I

work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi-
CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think
this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o-
gists' names.

Ken

On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote:

I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the

list.

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Maybe apologies even if you haven't...

Best,

Matt

Mineralanguage.

A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the

geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I
semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about
since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite
(MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well,
it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite
(BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a
man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).”

Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph

Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his
name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being
mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do
every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I
pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a
French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin
Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the
names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why
do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little
nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my
tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But
no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only
because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know:
“Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if
one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named
after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not
“sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.”

Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible

pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and
charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as
different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out
how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is
named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should
try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly.

So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the

Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite
occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning
“single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words
"monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline,"
etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,”
that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably
the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect
anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth
materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to
the next generation.

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |
| | :|

||"||"|||"||"||"|||"||"|||"||"||"||_|
Kenneth JT Livi, PhD
Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility
of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary
Sciences and Biology Olin Hall
3400 N Charles Street
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA
|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  | :|  |  | .|  | .|  | .|  | .|  |  |
| :|

MSA-talk mailing list
MSA-talk@minlists.org
http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk

Hello All, This has been a very interesting discussion (I have been trying to get my students say WOL-las-ton-ite for ages, albeit to little avail because just about everyone else seems partial to Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE), but I do not think our frustration at the lack of consistency in the "Mineralanguage" will lead anywhere because: (1) The phonetic plasticity (or ambiguity?) of English leaves too much room for interpretation when it comes to long multisyllabic mineral names. For example, there are two "official" versions of PYROXENE in Merriam-Webster and I have heard the name XENOTIME pronounced in four different ways by native speakers! (2) There are global and regional variations in the English language that cannot be simply reconciled with a decree from the IMA. (3) Many, if not most, names based on foreign words cannot be pronounced "correctly" (i.e. in accord with the original) by English speakers because of phonetic differences - often quite significant - among different languages (try getting BYELLORUSSITE, TSAREGORODSTEVITE or SCHERBAKOVITE right, for example). In the same fashion, most mineral names rooted in English are butchered by everyone else; William Wollaston would probably never recognize that the Russian vəl-las-tah-NEET is actually named after him. I think having so much variation is actually a good thing because, in a way, it teaches our students to be open-minded and flexible (isn't that what geology is about?). Let's just agree to disagree!.. Anton Chakhmouradian University of Manitoba -----Original Message----- From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Lewis, Dewi Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:06 AM To: MSA public List serve Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage Clinoptilolite Clionop-tilolite is what I usually hear said. But surely it should be clino-ptilolite and the p should be silent(ish) as someone I suspect a member of this list once told me (Guy?). Discuss......! ____________________________________________________________________________ Dr. Dewi W. Lewis Senior Lecturer and Admissions Tutor Department of Chemistry Email: d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:d.w.lewis@ucl.ac.uk> University College London Phone: +44 020-7679-4779 20 Gordon St. Fax: +44 020-7679-7463 London WC1H 0AJ, UK WWW: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/chemistry/staff/academic_pages/dewi_lewis > -----Original Message----- > From: msa-talk-bounces@minlists.org [mailto:msa-talk- > bounces@minlists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Tracy > Sent: 01 May 2014 14:53 > To: KEN Livi > Cc: Matthew Kohn; MSA public List serve > Subject: Re: [MSA-talk] Mineralanguage > > That rule makes sense. But I would think that when a mineral name > incorporates the proper name of a person, then the correct pronunciation of > that person's name should be kept intact. So we should have WOL-las-ton-ite > and SIL-li-man-ite. > > Interesting that the Brits get the first one right and the second one wrong, > and the Americans the reverse. Likely because of the nationalities of the > honorees I assume. Two peoples divided by a common language and all that. > > Dr. Robert Tracy > Professor of Geosciences > Associate Department Head > Director, Museum of Geosciences > Virginia Tech > Blacksburg VA 24061-0420 > 540-231-5980 > 540-231-3386 (F) > > > > > On May 1, 2014, at 9:20 AM, KEN Livi <klivi@jhu.edu> wrote: > > > Found a rule to explain this. At the website > > http://penningtonpublishing.com/blog/reading/ten-english-accent-rules/ > > > > Rule #8 states: The primary accent is usually on the first syllable in three- > syllable words, if that syllable is a root. For example, chár-ac-ter. > > > > and then… > > > > Rule #10: The primary accent is usually on the second syllable in four- > syllable words. For example, in-tél-li-gent. > > > > So when you take a three syllable word and make it four syllables, the > accent will change from the first to the second syllable. > > > > It sounds right to change WOL-las-ton to owl-LAS-ton-ite. But is it right? > > > > Ken > > > > On May 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, KEN Livi wrote: > > > >> Matt, > >> This brings up one of the roots of a complication in the English language. I > work with a MI-cro-scope every day, but I am a mi-CROS-co-pist and do mi- > CROS-copy. There is a change in accent when a word is lengthened. I think > this is coming into play when we make MIN-er-al names out of Min-er-AL-o- > gists' names. > >> Ken > >> > >> On May 1, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Matthew Kohn wrote: > >> > >>> I ran across this today, and couldn't remember if I already sent it to the > list. > >>> > >>> Apologies if you've seen this before. > >>> > >>> Maybe apologies even if you haven't... > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Matt > >>> > >>> Mineralanguage. > >>> > >>> A few years ago, I enjoyed a thorough review from Randy Parrish on the > geochronology of monazite. At the end, no one offered any questions, so I > semi-facetiously asked him to settle a question that I’ve wondered about > since I first learned of the mineral c. 20 years ago: “Randy – is it monazite > (MAHN-uh-zite) or monazite (MOHN-uh-zite)?” To which he replied “Well, > it’s like potato (puh-TAY-toh) and potato (puh-TAH-toh)…or… baddeleyite > (BAD-uh-lee-ite) and baddelyite (buh-DEHL-ee-ite). You know, there was a > man named Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee).” > >>> > >>> Exactly. The mineral baddeleyite was named after a man called Joseph > Baddeley (BAD-uh-lee), not some other guy who might have pronounced his > name buh-DEHL-ee. Don’t you think that if Joseph knew his name was being > mispronounced, he would correct us? I certainly do, because that’s what I do > every time someone pronounces my name as if it were spelled Kahn. I > pronounce it like “cone,” and, no, I have no connection with Madeline or a > French film festival. Similarly, there are minerals named after Benjamin > Silliman and William Wollaston. No one would think of pronouncing the > names of those venerable gentlemen sill-IH-muhn, or wuh-LAS-tuhn. So why > do we pronounce the minerals that way? Is it because the cadence is a little > nicer? I admit Wuh-LAS-ton-ITE does trip a little more pleasurably off my > tongue than WOOL-uh-stuhn-ITE (the technically correct pronunciation). But > no one mispronounces cummingtonite (CUH-ming-tuhn-ITE). Is that only > because it sounds like two common English words stuck together? You know: > “Are you cummingtonite?” “Why yes, of quartz I am.” I certainly hope that if > one of my scientific heroes, Jane Selverstone, ever has a mineral named > after her, future mineralogists will pronounce it “SEL-ver-STOHN-ite” and not > “sel-VEHR-stuhn-ITE.” > >>> > >>> Yes, I know there are real regional differences in possible > pronunciations, for example EK-lo-gite or EK-lo-jite. I agree those minor and > charming differences make mineralogical discourse more interesting, just as > different accents embellish our language. But if we know or can figure out > how to pronounce the name of the person or place after whom a mineral is > named, or the source of the word if it’s not a name, then I think we should > try to pronounce the mineral at least approximately correctly. > >>> > >>> So, is it MAHN-uh-zite or MOHN-uh-zite? Well, it turns out the root is the > Greek word μοναζειν (“monazein” meaning “to be alone” because monazite > occurs as isolated crystals), or more generally μόνος (“monos” meaning > “single”). It’s the same root used in our modern English words > "monochromatic," “monastery,” “mononucleosis,” “monocle,” "monocline," > etc. And if you’re thinking “Yeah, but what about Mono (Moh-Noh) Lake,” > that name derives from a Native American source, not Greek. So, probably > the preferred English pronunciation is MAHN-uh-zite. Not that I expect > anyone to change. But the next time you’re teaching mineralogy or Earth > materials, maybe you’ll think about how pronunciations get passed along to > the next generation. > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> MSA-talk mailing list > >>> MSA-talk@minlists.org > >>> http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > >> > >> |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| > >> Kenneth JT Livi, PhD > >> Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility > >> of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary > >> Sciences and Biology Olin Hall > >> 3400 N Charles Street > >> Johns Hopkins University > >> Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA > >> | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | > >> | | :| > >> > > > > |_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|_|"|_|"|_|"|_|_| > > Kenneth JT Livi, PhD > > Director, The High-Resolution Analytical Electron Microbeam Facility > > of the Integrated Imaging Center Departments of Earth and Planetary > > Sciences and Biology Olin Hall > > 3400 N Charles Street > > Johns Hopkins University > > Baltimore, Maryland 21218 USA > > | | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | :| | | .| | .| | .| | .| | | > > | :| > > > > _______________________________________________ > > MSA-talk mailing list > > MSA-talk@minlists.org > > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk > > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list > MSA-talk@minlists.org > http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk _______________________________________________ MSA-talk mailing list MSA-talk@minlists.org http://lists.minlists.org/mailman/listinfo/msa-talk
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