Empathy List Archives

KR

Kent Ratajeski

Thu, Oct 5, 2023 5:51 PM

All,

I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this?

Thanks!

Kent Ratajeski

Dr. Kent Ratajeski

Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director
North Hall 081

Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment

Calvin University

3201 Burton St. SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49546
(859) 526-6769
https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski

All, I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this? Thanks! Kent Ratajeski --- Dr. Kent Ratajeski Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director North Hall 081 Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment Calvin University 3201 Burton St. SE Grand Rapids, MI 49546 (859) 526-6769 https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski

DH

Don Halterman

Fri, Oct 6, 2023 3:20 PM

Hi, while I was in graduate school I ordered a number of different minerals
from Chinese vendors and used EDS or WDS to analyze them. Several of the
items were not what they were claimed to be, but my favorite was a
moonstone feldspar that turned out to be glass. I mean, actual glass.
Therefore I wouldn't put much faith in attributed localities to minerals
you buy from random vendors.

Yours,
Don Halterman

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 07:37 Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk <
msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote:

All,

I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan
showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be
used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I
manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese
seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be
concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this?

Thanks!

Kent Ratajeski

Dr. Kent Ratajeski
Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director
North Hall 081

Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment

Calvin University
3201 Burton St. SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49546
(859) 526-6769
https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski

MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org
To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org

Hi, while I was in graduate school I ordered a number of different minerals from Chinese vendors and used EDS or WDS to analyze them. Several of the items were not what they were claimed to be, but my favorite was a moonstone feldspar that turned out to be glass. I mean, actual glass. Therefore I wouldn't put much faith in attributed localities to minerals you buy from random vendors. Yours, Don Halterman On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 07:37 Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk < msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote: > All, > > I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan > showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be > used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I > manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese > seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be > concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this? > > Thanks! > > Kent Ratajeski > > --- > > Dr. Kent Ratajeski > Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director > North Hall 081 > > Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment > > Calvin University > 3201 Burton St. SE > Grand Rapids, MI 49546 > (859) 526-6769 > https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski > > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org > To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org >

RH

Rhiana Henry

Fri, Oct 6, 2023 3:44 PM

Hi all,

A check on Mindat.org does not show lapis lazuli, or lazurite, from
Madagascar. There is reported hauyne, but there are no photos of it from
that country and the sources cited are mostly archaic. Perhaps some lapis
could be from a new deposit, but I would be extremely skeptical of this.
That vendor is likely either selling a blue non-lapis material from
Madagascar, selling lapis from another country and claiming Madagascar, or
neither the lapis nor the locality is true.

I'd suggest finding some more reputable vendors for your specimen. There
are some who do deal on Ebay, but are better found first by going to trade
shows and networking within the mineral collecting community. If Madagascar
lapis starts appearing regularly in shows and gets a verified locality,
then I'll believe it.

Best wishes for your specimen hunt!

~Rhiana Henry
Liddicoat Post-doctoral Research Fellow
Gemological Institute of America

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 8:28 AM Don Halterman via MSA-talk <
msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote:

Hi, while I was in graduate school I ordered a number of different
minerals from Chinese vendors and used EDS or WDS to analyze them. Several
of the items were not what they were claimed to be, but my favorite was a
moonstone feldspar that turned out to be glass. I mean, actual glass.
Therefore I wouldn't put much faith in attributed localities to minerals
you buy from random vendors.

Yours,
Don Halterman

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 07:37 Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk <
msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote:

All,

I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan
showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be
used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I
manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese
seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be
concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this?

Thanks!

Kent Ratajeski

Dr. Kent Ratajeski
Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director
North Hall 081

Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment

Calvin University
3201 Burton St. SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49546
(859) 526-6769
https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski

MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org
To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org

Hi all, A check on Mindat.org does not show lapis lazuli, or lazurite, from Madagascar. There is reported hauyne, but there are no photos of it from that country and the sources cited are mostly archaic. Perhaps some lapis could be from a new deposit, but I would be extremely skeptical of this. That vendor is likely either selling a blue non-lapis material from Madagascar, selling lapis from another country and claiming Madagascar, or neither the lapis nor the locality is true. I'd suggest finding some more reputable vendors for your specimen. There are some who do deal on Ebay, but are better found first by going to trade shows and networking within the mineral collecting community. If Madagascar lapis starts appearing regularly in shows and gets a verified locality, then I'll believe it. Best wishes for your specimen hunt! ~Rhiana Henry Liddicoat Post-doctoral Research Fellow Gemological Institute of America On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 8:28 AM Don Halterman via MSA-talk < msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote: > Hi, while I was in graduate school I ordered a number of different > minerals from Chinese vendors and used EDS or WDS to analyze them. Several > of the items were not what they were claimed to be, but my favorite was a > moonstone feldspar that turned out to be glass. I mean, actual glass. > Therefore I wouldn't put much faith in attributed localities to minerals > you buy from random vendors. > > Yours, > Don Halterman > > > On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 07:37 Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk < > msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote: > >> All, >> >> I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan >> showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be >> used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I >> manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese >> seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be >> concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Kent Ratajeski >> >> --- >> >> Dr. Kent Ratajeski >> Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director >> North Hall 081 >> >> Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment >> >> Calvin University >> 3201 Burton St. SE >> Grand Rapids, MI 49546 >> (859) 526-6769 >> https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org >> > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org > To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org >

H(

H.R. (Dick) Naslund

Fri, Oct 6, 2023 3:49 PM

Kent,

I think the Chilean Lapis is much more available, and more trustworthy.

Dick Naslund

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 9:38 AM Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk <
msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote:

All,

I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan
showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be
used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I
manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese
seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be
concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this?

Thanks!

Kent Ratajeski

Dr. Kent Ratajeski
Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director
North Hall 081

Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment

Calvin University
3201 Burton St. SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49546
(859) 526-6769
https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski

MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org
To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org

Kent, I think the Chilean Lapis is much more available, and more trustworthy. Dick Naslund On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 9:38 AM Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk < msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote: > All, > > I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan > showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be > used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I > manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese > seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be > concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this? > > Thanks! > > Kent Ratajeski > > --- > > Dr. Kent Ratajeski > Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director > North Hall 081 > > Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment > > Calvin University > 3201 Burton St. SE > Grand Rapids, MI 49546 > (859) 526-6769 > https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski > > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org > To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org >

GH

George Harlow

Fri, Oct 6, 2023 8:43 PM

Zeb Gul (Zeb Mineralien) <zebgul68@hotmail.com mailto:zebgul68@hotmail.com> is a reliable source in Germany for Afghan Lapis.

George E. Harlow gharlow@amnh.org mailto:gharlow@amnh.org
Dept. Earth and Planetary Sciences
American Museum of Natural History
200 Central Park West, New York, NY 10024-5102 U.S.A.
Phone (212)769-5378 FAX (212)769-5533
WWW: http://www.amnh.org/our-research/staff-directory/george-e.-harlow
http://research.amnh.org/eps/jade/

From: Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk msa-talk@minlists.org
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 1:52 PM
To: msa-talk@minlists.org
Subject: [MSA-talk] rough lapis lazuli...from Madagascar?

EXTERNAL SENDER

All,

I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this?

Thanks!

Kent Ratajeski

Dr. Kent Ratajeski
Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director
North Hall 081

Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment

Calvin University
3201 Burton St. SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49546
(859) 526-6769
https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski

Zeb Gul (Zeb Mineralien) <zebgul68@hotmail.com<mailto:zebgul68@hotmail.com>> is a reliable source in Germany for Afghan Lapis. George E. Harlow gharlow@amnh.org<mailto:gharlow@amnh.org> Dept. Earth and Planetary Sciences American Museum of Natural History 200 Central Park West, New York, NY 10024-5102 U.S.A. Phone (212)769-5378 FAX (212)769-5533 WWW: http://www.amnh.org/our-research/staff-directory/george-e.-harlow http://research.amnh.org/eps/jade/ From: Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk <msa-talk@minlists.org> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 1:52 PM To: msa-talk@minlists.org Subject: [MSA-talk] rough lapis lazuli...from Madagascar? EXTERNAL SENDER All, I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this? Thanks! Kent Ratajeski --- Dr. Kent Ratajeski Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director North Hall 081 Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment Calvin University 3201 Burton St. SE Grand Rapids, MI 49546 (859) 526-6769 https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski

AP

Alfredo Petrov

Fri, Oct 6, 2023 8:49 PM

It was an incredible experience to visit one of the vast lapidary malls in
China and see several hundreds of shops, open year-round, with imported
lapidary rocks of every type imaginable from every country imaginable. And
there are many such stone markets in various Chinese cities. Lapidary rocks
are imported to China in ocean containers, 10 to 20 tons at a time, and
pass through several layers of middlemen before they reach some E-bay
seller. It is no surprise that many of the sellers have no idea where the
rocks they sell really come from, so all locality information needs to be
taken with a grain of salt, unless the material is easily recognizable,
like the lapis lazuli from Afghanistan. The Chilean material is of lower
quality and produced in much lesser quantities.

Alfredo Petrov

On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 at 17:26, Don Halterman via MSA-talk <
msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote:

Hi, while I was in graduate school I ordered a number of different
minerals from Chinese vendors and used EDS or WDS to analyze them. Several
of the items were not what they were claimed to be, but my favorite was a
moonstone feldspar that turned out to be glass. I mean, actual glass.
Therefore I wouldn't put much faith in attributed localities to minerals
you buy from random vendors.

Yours,
Don Halterman

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 07:37 Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk <
msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote:

All,

I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan
showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be
used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I
manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese
seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be
concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this?

Thanks!

Kent Ratajeski

Dr. Kent Ratajeski
Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director
North Hall 081

Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment

Calvin University
3201 Burton St. SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49546
(859) 526-6769
https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski

MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org
To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org

It was an incredible experience to visit one of the vast lapidary malls in China and see several hundreds of shops, open year-round, with imported lapidary rocks of every type imaginable from every country imaginable. And there are many such stone markets in various Chinese cities. Lapidary rocks are imported to China in ocean containers, 10 to 20 tons at a time, and pass through several layers of middlemen before they reach some E-bay seller. It is no surprise that many of the sellers have no idea where the rocks they sell really come from, so all locality information needs to be taken with a grain of salt, unless the material is easily recognizable, like the lapis lazuli from Afghanistan. The Chilean material is of lower quality and produced in much lesser quantities. Alfredo Petrov On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 at 17:26, Don Halterman via MSA-talk < msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote: > Hi, while I was in graduate school I ordered a number of different > minerals from Chinese vendors and used EDS or WDS to analyze them. Several > of the items were not what they were claimed to be, but my favorite was a > moonstone feldspar that turned out to be glass. I mean, actual glass. > Therefore I wouldn't put much faith in attributed localities to minerals > you buy from random vendors. > > Yours, > Don Halterman > > > On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 07:37 Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk < > msa-talk@minlists.org> wrote: > >> All, >> >> I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan >> showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be >> used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I >> manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese >> seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be >> concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Kent Ratajeski >> >> --- >> >> Dr. Kent Ratajeski >> Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director >> North Hall 081 >> >> Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment >> >> Calvin University >> 3201 Burton St. SE >> Grand Rapids, MI 49546 >> (859) 526-6769 >> https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org >> > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org > To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org >

CL

Cigdem Lule

Fri, Oct 6, 2023 9:51 PM

Dr. Ratajeski,

I can speak from a gemologist’s and mineral appraiser’s experience that there is no lapis lazuli coming from Madagascar. High quality lapis lazuli is only sourced from Afghanistan. Chile is another source but in inferior quality. However, there is this latest fashion of “responsible and ethical gems” causing some dealers to avoid declaring the true origin of their materials. Lapis Lazuli trade is officially under Taliban ruling; therefore, the benefits support the Taliban. It is also highly plausible that the dealer on Etsy is buying this particular stock from a Madagascan dealer. Either way, I don’t believe his location information is correct.

If you are looking for a display piece with all the characteristics listed in your message, it is better to buy it from a dealer directly in the US. While I will not endorse a particular dealer, I would recommend that you contact Lizzadro Museum of Lapidary Arts, https://lizzadromuseum.org , in Oak Brook, Illinois. They have a well stocked museum shop and I’m sure that they will help you to source a good quality lapis as a fellow museum.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Cigdem

Çiğdem Lüle, PhD, FGA, GIA GG, DGA
Kybele LLC
825 E. Golf Road, Suite 1100
Arlington Heights, IL 60005
Tel: +1 847 640 8644
www.kybelellc.com http://www.kybelellc.com

From: Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk msa-talk@minlists.org
Date: Friday, October 6, 2023 at 8:41 AM
To: msa-talk@minlists.org msa-talk@minlists.org
Subject: [MSA-talk] rough lapis lazuli...from Madagascar?
All,

I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this?

Thanks!

Kent Ratajeski

Dr. Kent Ratajeski
Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director
North Hall 081

Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment

Calvin University
3201 Burton St. SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49546
(859) 526-6769
https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski

Dr. Ratajeski, I can speak from a gemologist’s and mineral appraiser’s experience that there is no lapis lazuli coming from Madagascar. High quality lapis lazuli is only sourced from Afghanistan. Chile is another source but in inferior quality. However, there is this latest fashion of “responsible and ethical gems” causing some dealers to avoid declaring the true origin of their materials. Lapis Lazuli trade is officially under Taliban ruling; therefore, the benefits support the Taliban. It is also highly plausible that the dealer on Etsy is buying this particular stock from a Madagascan dealer. Either way, I don’t believe his location information is correct. If you are looking for a display piece with all the characteristics listed in your message, it is better to buy it from a dealer directly in the US. While I will not endorse a particular dealer, I would recommend that you contact Lizzadro Museum of Lapidary Arts, https://lizzadromuseum.org , in Oak Brook, Illinois. They have a well stocked museum shop and I’m sure that they will help you to source a good quality lapis as a fellow museum. Hope this helps. Kind regards, Cigdem Çiğdem Lüle, PhD, FGA, GIA GG, DGA Kybele LLC 825 E. Golf Road, Suite 1100 Arlington Heights, IL 60005 Tel: +1 847 640 8644 www.kybelellc.com<http://www.kybelellc.com> From: Kent Ratajeski via MSA-talk <msa-talk@minlists.org> Date: Friday, October 6, 2023 at 8:41 AM To: msa-talk@minlists.org <msa-talk@minlists.org> Subject: [MSA-talk] rough lapis lazuli...from Madagascar? All, I am on the hunt for a rough piece of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan showing deep blue color, pyrite, and white streaks of calcite. It will be used as a setting for some lapis jewelry in the mineral museum that I manage here at Calvin. I've found some on eBay offered by a Chinese seller, but the place of origin is marked as Madagascar. Should I be concerned? Does Madagascar export lapis? Any thoughts about this? Thanks! Kent Ratajeski --- Dr. Kent Ratajeski Lecturer and Dice Mineralogical Museum Director North Hall 081 Department of Geology, Geography, and Environment Calvin University 3201 Burton St. SE Grand Rapids, MI 49546 (859) 526-6769 https://calvin.edu/directory/people/kent-ratajeski