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SOL re benchtop demo

PD
Perkins, Dexter
Wed, Feb 24, 2021 8:42 PM

I have been thinking about the notion of a bench top decompression melting demo. That would be wayyy cool. But I think we are just outta luck.

First of all, finding a substance that melts at classroom conditions is a challenge unto itself. Several references mention gallium but, as we know, it is backwards and melts with compression, not decompression.

But, even if we could track down the appropriate material, a benchtop demo would be challenging (if not impossible) because solid-liquid boundaries are generally VERY steep in PT space. Most melting diagrams have Kbar scales on them for this reason. This means you would have to change the pressure A LOT to see a distinct phase change, and that pressure change is probably more than you could safely accomplish on the benchtop.

And finally, I think I am correct about this: solid to liquid phase changes are endothermic (absorb heat) - - - so thermodynamics will work against us. The endothermic process will cause T to drop unless we design some fancy apparatus to control it. Without that control, conditions would just follow the solid-liquid boundary (both P and T decrease) and you would never see a distinct phase change.

But speaking of melting: A student wants to know why there is such a wide range in melting temperatures of minerals. And, it occurs to me that I do not really know. At some point we all learned that silicic magmas melt at lower T than mafic ones, so it is tempting to blame it on silica content. But this cannot be the complete explanation because SiO2 melts at higher T than CaMgSi2O6, I also learned at some point that ionic crystals melt at lower temps than covalent crystals - so are bond type and strength the controlling factors? Or are there other considerations that I am overlooking?

I hope you all are staying vertical and positive while testing negative.

I have been thinking about the notion of a bench top decompression melting demo. That would be wayyy cool. But I think we are just outta luck. First of all, finding a substance that melts at classroom conditions is a challenge unto itself. Several references mention gallium but, as we know, it is backwards and melts with compression, not decompression. But, even if we could track down the appropriate material, a benchtop demo would be challenging (if not impossible) because solid-liquid boundaries are generally VERY steep in PT space. Most melting diagrams have Kbar scales on them for this reason. This means you would have to change the pressure A LOT to see a distinct phase change, and that pressure change is probably more than you could safely accomplish on the benchtop. And finally, I think I am correct about this: solid to liquid phase changes are endothermic (absorb heat) - - - so thermodynamics will work against us. The endothermic process will cause T to drop unless we design some fancy apparatus to control it. Without that control, conditions would just follow the solid-liquid boundary (both P and T decrease) and you would never see a distinct phase change. But speaking of melting: A student wants to know why there is such a wide range in melting temperatures of minerals. And, it occurs to me that I do not really know. At some point we all learned that silicic magmas melt at lower T than mafic ones, so it is tempting to blame it on silica content. But this cannot be the complete explanation because SiO2 melts at higher T than CaMgSi2O6, I also learned at some point that ionic crystals melt at lower temps than covalent crystals - so are bond type and strength the controlling factors? Or are there other considerations that I am overlooking? I hope you all are staying vertical and positive while testing negative.
MP
Mike Palin
Wed, Feb 24, 2021 9:19 PM

Hi Dex-

Yeah, I was hoping that there would some new organic substance, but it looks grim. I guess I'm just going to have to shell out for a diamond cell ;)

On the subject of mineral melting points, there is an interesting plot of mp v hardness by Bruce Railsback available at his site on mineralogy and geochemistry (http://railsback.org/Fundamentals/HardnessMeltingPlot06.jpg). Of course, as we all know, the melting points of the minerals that compose a rock and its solidus are not well correlated - even under dry conditions.

Cheers,
Mike


Dr J. Michael Palin
Department of Geology
University of Otago
PO Box 56, Dunedin 9054 (post)
360 Leith Street, North Dunedin 9016 (courier)
New Zealand
+64-3-479-9083 (office)
+64-3-479-7527 (fax)
+64-3-479-7519 (admin)
ORCID 0000-0002-4972-7302


Who will prefer the jingle of jade pendants
If they once have heard stone growing in a cliff?

  • Lao Tzu

From: Perkins, Dexter via MSA-talk msa-talk@minlists.org
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 9:42 AM
To: MSA list (msa-talk@minlists.org)
Subject: [MSA-talk] SOL re benchtop demo

I have been thinking about the notion of a bench top decompression melting demo. That would be wayyy cool. But I think we are just outta luck.

First of all, finding a substance that melts at classroom conditions is a challenge unto itself. Several references mention gallium but, as we know, it is backwards and melts with compression, not decompression.

But, even if we could track down the appropriate material, a benchtop demo would be challenging (if not impossible) because solid-liquid boundaries are generally VERY steep in PT space. Most melting diagrams have Kbar scales on them for this reason. This means you would have to change the pressure A LOT to see a distinct phase change, and that pressure change is probably more than you could safely accomplish on the benchtop.

And finally, I think I am correct about this: solid to liquid phase changes are endothermic (absorb heat) - - - so thermodynamics will work against us. The endothermic process will cause T to drop unless we design some fancy apparatus to control it. Without that control, conditions would just follow the solid-liquid boundary (both P and T decrease) and you would never see a distinct phase change.

But speaking of melting: A student wants to know why there is such a wide range in melting temperatures of minerals. And, it occurs to me that I do not really know. At some point we all learned that silicic magmas melt at lower T than mafic ones, so it is tempting to blame it on silica content. But this cannot be the complete explanation because SiO2 melts at higher T than CaMgSi2O6, I also learned at some point that ionic crystals melt at lower temps than covalent crystals – so are bond type and strength the controlling factors? Or are there other considerations that I am overlooking?

I hope you all are staying vertical and positive while testing negative.

Hi Dex- Yeah, I was hoping that there would some new organic substance, but it looks grim. I guess I'm just going to have to shell out for a diamond cell ;) On the subject of mineral melting points, there is an interesting plot of mp v hardness by Bruce Railsback available at his site on mineralogy and geochemistry (http://railsback.org/Fundamentals/HardnessMeltingPlot06.jpg). Of course, as we all know, the melting points of the minerals that compose a rock and its solidus are not well correlated - even under dry conditions. Cheers, Mike ___________________________________________________ Dr J. Michael Palin Department of Geology University of Otago PO Box 56, Dunedin 9054 (post) 360 Leith Street, North Dunedin 9016 (courier) New Zealand +64-3-479-9083 (office) +64-3-479-7527 (fax) +64-3-479-7519 (admin) ORCID 0000-0002-4972-7302 _______________________________ Who will prefer the jingle of jade pendants If they once have heard stone growing in a cliff? - Lao Tzu ________________________________________ From: Perkins, Dexter via MSA-talk <msa-talk@minlists.org> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 9:42 AM To: MSA list (msa-talk@minlists.org) Subject: [MSA-talk] SOL re benchtop demo I have been thinking about the notion of a bench top decompression melting demo. That would be wayyy cool. But I think we are just outta luck. First of all, finding a substance that melts at classroom conditions is a challenge unto itself. Several references mention gallium but, as we know, it is backwards and melts with compression, not decompression. But, even if we could track down the appropriate material, a benchtop demo would be challenging (if not impossible) because solid-liquid boundaries are generally VERY steep in PT space. Most melting diagrams have Kbar scales on them for this reason. This means you would have to change the pressure A LOT to see a distinct phase change, and that pressure change is probably more than you could safely accomplish on the benchtop. And finally, I think I am correct about this: solid to liquid phase changes are endothermic (absorb heat) - - - so thermodynamics will work against us. The endothermic process will cause T to drop unless we design some fancy apparatus to control it. Without that control, conditions would just follow the solid-liquid boundary (both P and T decrease) and you would never see a distinct phase change. But speaking of melting: A student wants to know why there is such a wide range in melting temperatures of minerals. And, it occurs to me that I do not really know. At some point we all learned that silicic magmas melt at lower T than mafic ones, so it is tempting to blame it on silica content. But this cannot be the complete explanation because SiO2 melts at higher T than CaMgSi2O6, I also learned at some point that ionic crystals melt at lower temps than covalent crystals – so are bond type and strength the controlling factors? Or are there other considerations that I am overlooking? I hope you all are staying vertical and positive while testing negative.
PW
PatnJeff Warner
Wed, Feb 24, 2021 9:49 PM

I found a useful bench top demonstration is the critical point of CO2. 
All you need is a small pressure vessel with a window that can be mildly
heated.  The meniscus between liquid and vapor disappears at the C.P.
which is at 31deg.C (88deg.F) and 74 atmospheres.

best    jeff

*Jeff Warner *
213-405-1494
Los Angeles, CA 90010

On 2/24/2021 12:42 PM, Perkins, Dexter via MSA-talk wrote:

I have been thinking about the notion of a bench top decompression
melting demo. That would be wayyy cool. But I think we are just outta
luck.

First of all, finding a substance that melts at classroom conditions
is a challenge unto itself. Several references mention gallium but, as
we know, it is backwards and melts with compression, not decompression.

But, even if we could track down the appropriate material, a benchtop
demo would be challenging (if not impossible) because solid-liquid
boundaries are generally VERY steep in PT space. Most melting diagrams
have Kbar scales on them for this reason. This means you would have to
change the pressure A LOT to see a distinct phase change, and that
pressure change is probably more than you could safely accomplish on
the benchtop.

And finally, I think I am correct about this: solid to liquid phase
changes are endothermic (absorb heat) - - - so thermodynamics will
work against us. The endothermic process will cause T to drop unless
we design some fancy apparatus to control it. Without that control,
conditions would just follow the solid-liquid boundary (both P and T
decrease) and you would never see a distinct phase change.

But speaking of melting: A student wants to know why there is such a
wide range in melting temperatures of minerals. And, it occurs to me
that I do not really know. At some point we all learned that silicic
magmas melt at lower T than mafic ones, so it is tempting to blame it
on silica content. But this cannot be the complete explanation because
SiO2 melts at higher T than CaMgSi2O6, I also learned at some point
that ionic crystals melt at lower temps than covalent crystals – so
are bond type and strength the controlling factors? Or are there other
considerations that I am overlooking?

I hope you all are staying vertical and positive while testing negative.


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I found a useful bench top demonstration is the critical point of CO2.  All you need is a small pressure vessel with a window that can be mildly heated.  The meniscus between liquid and vapor disappears at the C.P. which is at 31deg.C (88deg.F) and 74 atmospheres. best    jeff *Jeff Warner * 213-405-1494 Los Angeles, CA 90010 On 2/24/2021 12:42 PM, Perkins, Dexter via MSA-talk wrote: > > I have been thinking about the notion of a bench top decompression > melting demo. That would be wayyy cool. But I think we are just outta > luck. > > First of all, finding a substance that melts at classroom conditions > is a challenge unto itself. Several references mention gallium but, as > we know, it is backwards and melts with compression, not decompression. > > But, even if we could track down the appropriate material, a benchtop > demo would be challenging (if not impossible) because solid-liquid > boundaries are generally VERY steep in PT space. Most melting diagrams > have Kbar scales on them for this reason. This means you would have to > change the pressure A LOT to see a distinct phase change, and that > pressure change is probably more than you could safely accomplish on > the benchtop. > > And finally, I think I am correct about this: solid to liquid phase > changes are endothermic (absorb heat) - - - so thermodynamics will > work against us. The endothermic process will cause T to drop unless > we design some fancy apparatus to control it. Without that control, > conditions would just follow the solid-liquid boundary (both P and T > decrease) and you would never see a distinct phase change. > > But speaking of melting: A student wants to know why there is such a > wide range in melting temperatures of minerals. And, it occurs to me > that I do not really know. At some point we all learned that silicic > magmas melt at lower T than mafic ones, so it is tempting to blame it > on silica content. But this cannot be the complete explanation because > SiO2 melts at higher T than CaMgSi2O6, I also learned at some point > that ionic crystals melt at lower temps than covalent crystals – so > are bond type and strength the controlling factors? Or are there other > considerations that I am overlooking? > > I hope you all are staying vertical and positive while testing negative. > > > _______________________________________________ > MSA-talk mailing list -- msa-talk@minlists.org > To unsubscribe send an email to msa-talk-leave@minlists.org